First things first. Before that, there should be a definitive separation of Church & State. Until that happens, the issue of legalizing divorce is moot & academic, especially with a president who tells the world that her policies are determined by her being a Catholic.

may divorce sa pinas kung alam nyo lang..
para sa mga muslim nga lang...

Yun nga ang ibig ko sabihin.... there is no real secular state of governance in the Philippines. How can we properly discuss the prospects of it being policy? Pwede sa Muslim pero di pwede sa di Muslim ang divorce & polygamy.

Me mga masmahalagang bagay na dapat talakayan e, like family rights & obligations of the separatee, the initiator of the separation & the kids; re-marriages; etc..

To legalize or not legalize divorce oversimplifies things.

hmmm .. teka

this thread ... is on the religious aspect of divorce only

It does not implicate a political concept.


Ofcourse ... there can be a divorce in philippines
no doubt ... but this law is applicable to non-catholics
... if you want divorce while you are a catholic .. better
denounce your faith first ... it harder for you in the afterlife.

choosing between church and state is like choosing between
the will of GOD and the will of MAN (for catholics)

Yeah, tell that to the Crusaders, Klu Klux Klan & Mujaheedin.

I leave you ... with your arrogance ... enjoy this thread

And to yours... It's a free cyberspace, thank God for that, so enjoy the thread too.

Still, you're right, pardon my barbaric behavior. There is no excuse. I must therefore make my point.

When the Church engages in policy & legislation, mainly a political act, it must be in the context of political discussion & debate & not in the context of its religion & faith. However, it can use facts, expert opinion & other relevant, empirical information necessary to arrive at a decision.

The Church is within its right to speak at the pulpit on this issue & that right must never be curtailed but pontificating in the Halls of Congress & the Senate is like Sen. Flavier speaking in Church on the merits of artificial contraceptives & distributing flyers of free family planning clinics.

Hence, the separation of Church & State. It isn't a choice we have to make: Church or State. They are perspectives from which we have to discuss.

you got it!

... Is it advisable to promote a law to serve a few?

... Is 50% of population in the philippines want to undergo a divorce process? or is divorce law, another future problem in increasing the number of illegitimate children?

... what was the positive effect of divorce on U.S./western society ... except the law suits and financial aspects?

... India, a country of tolerance but strict on divorce... have you compared family values of its people to the western cities?

... is western divorce ... adaptable to asian values as a whole?

Q: Is it advisable to promote a law to serve a few?
A: Not even for the majority if it tramples on the inalienable rights of the minority

Q: Is 50% of population in the philippines want to undergo a divorce process? or is divorce law, another future problem in increasing the number of illegitimate children?
A: I'm sorry but I really don't understand the question. Kindly check your grammar.

Q: What was the positive effect of divorce on U.S./western society ... except the law suits and financial aspects?
A: Other than more biz for the lawyers & civil courts, more protection of the rights of the aggrieved stakeholders & the enforcement of responsibilities of parenthood to due process of hearing grievances of marital disputes

Q: India, a country of tolerance but strict on divorce... have you compared family values of its people to the western cities?
A: I appeal to universal rights of the innocent -- the aggrieved children -- & the univeersal responsibilities of parenthood & the promises of matrimony over the shades of mores from their explicit expressions & to their implicit practices.

Q: Is western divorce ... adaptable to asian values as a whole?
A: That's why we use democratic space to craft the proper legislation & policy that strengthens the institution of marriage, not makes it a mockery by beingmute on rights & responsibiltiies & having laws that are not enforced.

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely nether advocating the 100% adaptation of divorce laws in the West nor its 100% rejection but I am recommending we study its strong & fine points to craft a relevant, practiceable & constructive Marriage & Family Code.

The second question ... is somewhat constructed in short-cut

Divorce ... will PERMANENTLY put a child under a single parent ... and if one of his parents marries another ... he/she maybe a illegitimate (technically not biologically)

Introduction of a divorce law ... will increase the number of these "illegitimate" children.

So ... if a man treats his wife badly ... the solution is seperation, get a financial support ... and allow him to get married again.

makes sense ... everyone's a winner ... the wife got some money for surgery ... the husband got a new wife to practice his punches again.

Talk about the crisis of options in the Philippines ...

To the rephrased question: I certainly acknowledge that effect. A Family Code must provide equal rights & privileges to both legitimate, illegitimate & "illegitimate" children. They have all one thing in common, no one asked them to be born & it is the absolute responsibility of the parent to raise them & divorce doesn't exempt any parent from that responsiblity. A proper divorce or separation law (for lack of better terms) which, in my humble opinion, shouldn't even be a stand-alone legislation but integrated into the Family Code, shouldn't even make the children of divorcees "illegitimate" because children must never be punished in any way for the lapses of their parents; they are always victims. However, not only do current laws on divorce inflict this injustice on children; Catholic annulments do so too. Now why isn't anyone harping about that & going anti-annulment? Shouldn't an effective, responsible & compassionate government (including the Vatican) look at it that way?

So I can say the same for Catholic annulment that is relatively more accessible to the rich (but again, such is the case in the Philippines & I understand why many elite machismo lawmakers want it to remain this way). And how will the Church enforce financial support for the aggrieved children? With excommunication of the parents? Sure, go ahead & threaten the souls of the irresponsible parent(s) but the kids need help & protection here & now. Good governance in government is dutibound & politically authorized to do that & exact the justice from the parents, not from the generous alms of the flock whose resources could be freed to other works of mercy.

This brings me back to my point ... the need for a secularized government which the Philippines is sorely lacking & is hampered in enforcing a good Family Code & discussing legislation relevant to separation. This is a perspective even Catholics & followers of other religions & even atheists can take; it is not a black or white choice -- government or Church? -- that fundamentalists of any religion try to thrust down the throats of its flock.

You see, even His Holiness believes the Church is in need of reform & Vatican II admonishes the involvement of the lay to get involved in it as well.

There goes to show you that any form of seperation may it be ... church or state permitted has a negative impact on the children.

But the problem with divorce is ... its laxity.

Annulment can grant seperation ... YES ... no question ... but can it be granted so easy as that of the divorce process?

Some rich person apply for annulment ... but not all of them are granted without valid reason.

ANNULMENT
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RULES for an annulment:
================
1] Either spouse was already married to someone else at the time of the marriage;

2] Either spouse was too young to be married, or too young without required court or parental consent (unless, in some cases, where the marriage continued beyond the age of consent, which validates it);

3] Either spouse was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time of the marriage;

4] Either spouse was mentally incompetent at the time of the marriage;
If the consent to the marriage was based on fraud or force;

5] Either spouse was physically incapable to be married (typically, inability to have sexual intercourse which persists) at the time of the marriage;

6] The marriage is prohibited by law due to the relationship between the parties. This is the "prohibited degree of consanguity", or blood relationship between the parties. The most common legal relationship is 2nd cousins; 1st cousins are generally not legal.

7] Prisoners sentenced to a term of life imprisonment may not marry.

Many people are confused about the impact of an annulment upon the children born of the union. There is a common misconception that an annulment renders children illegitimate. In truth, however, the status of children is not affected by a declaration of invalidity. Church law specifically protects the rights, dignity and status of children (Canon 1137, Code of Canon Law).

Because legitimacy is under civil law ... annulment does not affect such questions of legitimacy.

Annulment also does not affect natural or civil obligations in the aftermath of a divorce, such as child support, visitation rights, alimony, and property or inheritance rights. This process is conducted solely for religious purposes; it says nothing about the civil effects of a marriage relationship. It seeks to protect the dignity and sacredness of marriage, while at the same time protecting the rights of persons.


DIVORCE
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An annual study in the UK by management consultants Grant Thornton, estimates the main causes of divorce based on surveys of matrimonial lawyers (see [7]).

The main causes in 2004 (2003) were:
=========================
1] Extra-marital affairs - 27% (29%)
2] Family strains - 18% (11%)
3] Emotional/physical abuse - 17% (10%)
4] Mid-life crisis - 13% (not in 2003 survey)
5] Addictions, e.g. alcoholism and gambling - 6% (5%)
6] Workaholism - 6% (5%)

Divorce leads to the creation of two households rather than one, with consequent increased costs. All parties suffer these effects. As more women are awarded child custody, many of the roles and difficulties described below may be reversed, although men who are awarded custody have historically been less likely to be awarded child support or alimony.

“divorce a mensa et thoro” (“divorce from bed-and-board”).
The husband and wife physically separated and were forbidden to live or cohabit together; but their marital did not terminate.

=========================
The difference between annulment and divorce is that ... in annulment you are declared to be "never married" (ab initio) while in divorce .. you are declared to be "seperated".
=========================

There goes to show you that any form of seperation may it be ... church or state permitted has a negative impact on the children.

But the problem with divorce is ... its laxity.

Annulment can grant seperation ... YES ... no question ... but can it be granted so easy as that of the divorce process?

Some rich person apply for annulment ... but not all of them are granted without valid reason.

Comment: There we go... we agree on a few things: (1) kids are the victims of "civil" war & matrimonial conflict; (2) divorce law isn't perfect; ; separation must be for a valid reason.

I just don't know if you agree that the Church must study & reform itself in the area of matrimony & family because I believe it should, as soon as possible. That is what motivates me to engage in this very exciting & important discussion.

In addressing issues between the difference between Church annulment & divorce:

1) Impact on children: If there was nomarriage in the first place, that makes the children illegitimate, right? So what makes that different from divorce? I know, I know, let's read further on ... I have my comments then too.

2) Economic: Both cost money. Let's face it, if getting an annulment is difficult for the rich, what more for the poor? What more the chances of success of getting the annulment if you're poor? Still, I see no fundamental difference.

3) Responsibilities:

a] Either spouse was already married to someone else at the time of the marriage - the state can grant redress to the aggrieved who can file charges of adultery. Can the Church do that? Only under threat of Hell, which atheists will laugh at. But how do you enforce thelaw here & now, on Earth?

b] Either spouse was too young to be married, or too young without required court or parental consent (unless, in some cases, where the marriage continued beyond the age of consent, which validates it) - the state has the power & responsibility to exercise that power to make sure that doesn't happen in the 1st place ut there are still "child brides" in the Philippines that the Church even officiated. The state can grant redress again by charging the civil officials with gross irresponsibility in conduct of duty. What does the Church do to priests that officiate such weddings in the 1st place?

c] Either spouse was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time of the marriage; This should be obvious & the above comments likewise apply

d] Either spouse was mentally incompetent at the time of the marriage;
If the consent to the marriage was based on fraud or force - Ditto, esp cases where it was a shotgun marriage, an act of false noblesse oblige or an escape hatch <which it should not be for it makes a mockery of the institution & sacrament of marriage> from rape charges.

e] Either spouse was physically incapable to be married (typically, inability to have sexual intercourse which persists) at the time of the marriage; - Isn't marriage a contract in the first place? shouldn't the enforcement of contracts be under state jurisdiction too?

f] The marriage is prohibited by law due to the relationship between the parties. This is the "prohibited degree of consanguity", or blood relationship between the parties. The most common legal relationship is 2nd cousins; 1st cousins are generally not legal. - As a sign & example of good & responsible institutional citizenry, the Church should therefore be obliged to exercise such legal due diligence before it administers the sacrament of marriage

g] Prisoners sentenced to a term of life imprisonment may not marry. - Oh yeah? Let's see anyone stop them from having families. This sounds as funny as trying to repeal the law of supply & demand. Having worked in Bilibid, this is unrealistic.

Now back to 1)

Many people are confused about the impact of an annulment upon the children born of the union. There is a common misconception that an annulment renders children illegitimate. In truth, however, the status of children is not affected by a declaration of invalidity. Church law specifically protects the rights, dignity and status of children (Canon 1137, Code of Canon Law).

Because legitimacy is under civil law ... annulment does not affect such questions of legitimacy.

Annulment also does not affect natural or civil obligations in the aftermath of a divorce, such as child support, visitation rights, alimony, and property or inheritance rights. This process is conducted solely for religious purposes; it says nothing about the civil effects of a marriage relationship. It seeks to protect the dignity and sacredness of marriage, while at the same time protecting the rights of persons.

Thank you my friend for providing the most important argument, which comes from Canon Law itself, of the necessity of the secular perspective & the basis for the separation of Church & State in such a delicate case.

DIVORCE (Excellent! I sure wish the Church would publish such an extensive research on annulment as well, in the name of good governance)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

An annual study in the UK by management consultants Grant Thornton, estimates the main causes of divorce based on surveys of matrimonial lawyers (see [7]).

The main causes in 2004 (2003) were:
=========================
1] Extra-marital affairs - 27% (29%)
2] Family strains - 18% (11%)
3] Emotional/physical abuse - 17% (10%)
4] Mid-life crisis - 13% (not in 2003 survey)
5] Addictions, e.g. alcoholism and gambling - 6% (5%)
6] Workaholism - 6% (5%)

Signs of the times require a proper Church response as well.

Divorce leads to the creation of two households rather than one, with consequent increased costs. All parties suffer these effects. As more women are awarded child custody, many of the roles and difficulties described below may be reversed, although men who are awarded custody have historically been less likely to be awarded child support or alimony.

Comment: As if annulment can stop the creation of two households anyway. What it can't enforce is the ongoing parental & other residual inter-espousal obligations & responsibilities. That's why the challenge lies in crafting better policy (on both the part of Church & State), legislation & more effective enforcement mechanisms.

“divorce a mensa et thoro” (“divorce from bed-and-board”).
The husband and wife physically separated and were forbidden to live or cohabit together; but their marital did not terminate.

Comment: Pardon my ignorance but what was the above for?

=========================
The difference between annulment and divorce is that ... in annulment you are declared to be "never married" (ab initio) while in divorce .. you are declared to be "seperated".
=========================

Comment: Let's not make the discussion a turf war between the Church & the State & start talking turkey about espousal & parental rights & responsibilities that strengthen the family as the basic social unit, esp for the kids sake. Nobody asked them to be born & they are the most helpless in such a terrible situation of marital dispute.